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Pq eu e esse livro temos uma certa "história" um com o outro de mais de uma década...Vide aí eu embaixo no fórum da Tolkien Plaza escrevendo como Boronwë
Tolkien - A Debt to Robin Hood?
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Quote Reply Topic: Tolkien - A Debt to Robin Hood?
Tolkien- A Debt to Robin Hood ? Or In The Bull ? Or A Load of Old Bull?
halfir Health Warning: This thread can seriously damage your credibility!
The Barrow Downs - Tolkien's Source
The OED describes a 'barrow' as used in FOTR Fog On The Barrow Downs as 'a grave mound' or 'tumulus'.
Few, however, realise the connection between the Barrow Downs referred to in LOTR and Robin Hood by Henry Gilbert,published in 1912, when Tolkien was 20.
Gilbert's Robin Hood is a collection of various tales about the legendary outlaw of Sherwood Forest using the best episodes from old ballads about Robin plus some additional tales by the author himself.
On p.170 of Gilbert's book we read that Robin and his men had made a secret bower at:
Barrow Down, which lay a few miles east of Mansfield, in a desolate piece of country where were many standing stones, old earthworks and barrows, or graves of the ancient dead'.
Sound familiar?
Mansfield, which is in the Sherwood Forest area lies between Sheffield and Notingham and is not very far from Leeds.
In 1920 Tolkien was appointed Reader in Englsih Language at Leeds University, taking the Chair in 1924.
From Tolkien's Letters and Carpenter's biography, plus the magisterial volumes of Scull& Hammond -JRR Tolkien Companion and Guide we know that Tolkien traveled in the environs of his university city and also much further afield, and it would have been an easy task for him, and one he probably undertook, to visit the area of Sherwood Forest - rich in medieval associations and thus part of his academic interest (cf. Sir Gawain and the Green Knight). Once in the Sherwood Forest area he would have been able to visit the Barrows at Mansfield, described in Gilbert's book on Robin Hood.
So there is a fascinating connection between JRR Tolkien, LOTR, and Robin Hood!
Is any of this true? Well, as individual elements all the facts stated are true other than the implications that Tolkien made a journey to Sherwood or had read Gilbert's book!
My purpose in creating this 'spoof' is to show how easy it is for 'urban myths' to grow up around the name of Tolkien, particularly if some town or village seeks to cash in in his fame . (I have no idea if the good burghers of Mansfield wish to do so- I'm sure they don't).
Even more disconncerting than the way virtually unlinked facts can be yoked together to support such theories, is the way in which , once disseminated on the Web, and often inaccurately reported in the dissemination, such theories take on the guise of actual 'facts' about Tolkien.
I only indulged in this spoof to demonstrate how easy it is to build a reasonably credible case by associating disparate facts with one another, and because quite by chance I was flicking through Gilbert's book on Robin Hood(which I didn't even know I had) , and my eye chanced upon 'Barrow Down'.
It will be interesting to see if the ubiquitous Web transforms this post into yet another 'urban myth'about Tolkien!
Edited by halfir - 28/Feb/2011 at 9:12pmHe that would foil me must use such weapons as I do, for I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble.
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You were flicking through the book and you didn't realize you had it? That's some skill
Vituð ér enn - eða hvat?
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You make a very interesting point halfir - I recall learning in history lessons the importance of bias when reading different sources, but not only does this apply to the bias of the author, but also the way that the internet now inevitably strings together pieces of un-related information. I am sure that if I was to google search "barrow down" I would also find other un-related references.
Thank you for giving me cause to think more deeply about the credibility of (particularly) online sources, especially considering the popularity of Wikipedia.
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This is a very interesting idea Halfir. You've now caused me to pick up both Robin Hood and FotR again so I can study this. (I don't want to, but I feel compelled to!)
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Given your warning about the fake construction of your thesis, it's rather interesting to see how such a reasoning can be constructed to be credible. From my point of view, this is a beautiful exercise of Rhetoric. Given this, why shouldn't it be credible ? If you wanted to show a dishonest falsification of facts, you should have been more assertive and deduced new groundless facts from the connected ones. But it doesn't seem that you did, did you ? You keep a neat distinction between facts and inferences, thus I ask again : why shouldn't it be credible ? Here there are firstly facts which are not necessarily related but which can be connected. You argue why they can. Secondly there is an interpretation which promotes the connection. I agree the deduction and thus the strong temptation of "cause-effect" are in themselves pernicious. But then it is the language and the scholar use of it which is challenged. Don't you think ?
S.Not a native speaker.
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I can see how someone could make a claim connecting Tolkien to Robin Hood via this 20th century author. However, it does not mean that Tolkien necessarily had Sherwood in mind. He may have visited it, but it does not follow it influenced his depiction of the Barrow Downs. I would require more evidence than his mere presence there, which is in itself a speculation - quite probable, but still not verified. From the people I've met in England, some people never visit places which are only a few hours off, and consider them far away. It's not a rule of thumb, but Americans are usually less worried about great distances.
That said, in writing essays we are encouraged to find parallels among stories, even if they are crazy, if we can find evidence to support our views. So it would be interesting to go through those tales of Robin Hood and see if there is any resemblance to Tolkien's (although why a refuge would be comparable to tombs I don't know). A safer route for me is to look at burials in heroic sagas.
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LOTR: Infelicitous phrasing on my part!He that would foil me must use such weapons as I do, for I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble.
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Thanks for remembering ( or sharing with) us a so beautiful book, Halfir. And I say this regardless of its relevance as a possible source to Tolkien.
An excellent ilustrated edition of it is available in the link right below:
Original picture made to Henry Gilbert's book, take notice of the notable resemblance with the painting of the Hildebrant Brothers depicted in this same post. It's a work made by the talentous Frank Godwin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Godwin
Henry Gilbert. Robin Hood. Content Page
The groups of "rangers" formed by the Twelve Companions of Barahir in the Silmarillion and the soldiers of Ithilien comanded by Faramir in Lord of the Rings are frequently compared with Robin Hood's outlaws in the books writen by Marjorie Burns or quoted by Hammond and Scull. ( pag 103 of the JRRT Companion and Guide.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merry_Men
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Barahir's_Outlaw_Band
Outlaws without hope they became, a desperate band that could not escape and would not yield ... Barahir and his men were hunted like wild beasts; and they retreated to the barren highland above the forest, and wandered among the tarns and rooky moors of that region, furthest from the spies and spells of Morgoth. Their bed was the heather and their roof the cloudy sky. (The Silmarillion, p. 165)
Richard C. West in 'Real-world Myth in a Secondary World', Tolkien the Medievalist (2003), also comments on resonances from various sources which a reader might recognize and suppose to have influenced elements of the story. (...)
West cites several works which may have provided 'echoes' for the story of Beren and Lúthien: Robin Hood and his outlaw band for Barahir; Tristan and Iseult living in the woods; the killing one by one of Finrod and Beren's companions 'is strongly reminiscent of the sons of King Volsung being killed one each night until only Sigmund survives'; Sauron's shape-shifting recalls the Norse god Loki and the Greek Nereus; Carcharoth biting off Beren's hand recalls Fenris Wolf and Tyr; Huan plays the same role as the magical helper in many fairy-tales; Liithien in her pleading before Mandos 'reenacts the descent into the underworld of Orpheus in Greek mythology or of Ishtar in Babylonian to recover a loved one, but with a happier result: much as in the Middle English *Sir Orfeo ...' (p. 265)
Perilous realms: Celtic and Norse in Tolkien's Middle-earth - Página 32
Faramir as Robin Hood
War of the Ring Art Gallery - The Brothers Hildebrandt/faramir
Faramir , depicted by the Hildebrant brothers, the composition, the colour scheme and the general theme are highly reminiscent of the ilustration transcribed previously
It seems that the Hildebrant's brothers were very conscious about the resemblances, to the point of including a clue to it in the title of one of their works.
.
Excellent analysis of the possible sources of the chapter in which Faramir was introduced made by Squire and his several interlocutors in this page:
http://users.bestweb.net/~jfgm/HerbsWeb/Discussion/Discussion15 - Commentary on Sources.htm
Robin Hood is a notable element in the comparisons
I can see Faramir as Robin in the casual leadership, in the woodslore, and in the clothing. But nothing about Faramir is very similar to Robin, at least Robin a la OAFK, which was my only exposure. Except for Ivanhoe, but I've not read that for decades now. Still, there is so much similarity between the Robin of old English tales and the Faramir of LOTR in place setting and clothing, and leadership of a small band of men...it has to have some significance. Now, what's even weirder is the phrase "dark and stilly womb of night", which is one of those vivid word-pictures that I tend to remember all my life like song lyrics: where does it come from?
Nick: dna (Registered User) Date/Time: Thu, 7/14/2005 at 20:20 EDT Browser/OS: Microsoft Internet Explorer V6.0 using Windows NT 5.1 In Reply To: Letters 58-72: progress on LOTR <Menelwyn> [7/13/2005 @ 15:50] (6/15) Subject: of course he did not "invent" Faramir From Letter 66, 6 May 1944
A new character has come on the scene (I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but there he came walking into the woods of Ithilien): Faramir, the brother of Boromir—and he is holding up the ‘catastrophe’ by a lot of stuff about the history of Gondor and Rohan....
What do you think of Faramir’s arrival on the scene? (In the earliest version of that section, Frodo and Sam were captured by Gondorians led by some random captain. That captain then evolved into Faramir.)
He did not invent Faramir, because Faramir... is Robin Hood!
Or that is at least the inspiration from whence he came. Its not unique for Tolkien to be talking as though he's a third party to his own creation - if one stays in tune to it, he does it all the time. Its just such a pleasure when we can actually read his thoughts, from time to time, expressed in exactly that way.
Faramir is not Robin Hood, any more than Aragorn is Arthur, Gandalf is Merlin, or Turin is Kullervo. But in as much as they are major inspirations behind Tolkien's creations, Faramir certainly comes on the scene like our favourite 'merry man' from Sherwood.
In the sub-section in which Faramir debuts, 'ferns' are mentioned over and over; and its ferns which not only lend Sherwood Forest its unique beauty, but promote hidden stealth under their leaves. Then when the 'Rangers of Ithilien' are first described:
"Four tall Men stood there. Two had great bows, almost of their own height, and great quivers of long green-feathered arrows. All had swords at their sides, and were clad in green and brown of varied hues, as if the better to walk unseen in the glades of Ithilien. Green gauntlets covered their hands, and thier faces were hooded and masked with green, except for their eyes, which were very keen and bright...
The tall green man laughed grimly. 'I am Faramir, Captain of Gondor,'..."
Faramir... Green Man... Robin Hood... Celtic legends, blended with the Anglo-Norman conflict, brought to life by Sir Walter Scott, & immortalized by Errol Flynn in Tolkien's day...
Could Tolkien have been anything but a third party to the wise, masked, swashbuckling, bow-wielding, posse-leading, forest-dwelling, green-wearing Faramir, Ranger of Ithilien Forest?
Edited by Boronwë - Today at 2:44am
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Nice post Boronwë. It made me laugh and I don't really know why, perhaps for a moment I thought that you were poking fun at the topic.
In relation to the topic, I do not think that Tolkien was influenced by Gilbert's Robin Hood. IMO the Barrow Downs thing is a coincidence, although I do think that Tolkien may have been influenced by stories of Robin Hood. This is seen though, as others have said above, 'groups of outlaws' such as Barahir and co., Rangers (esp. Faramir and co. of the South), and also Túrin and his band of outlaws. Whenever I read CoH, UT or the Silmarillion, I always think of Robin Hood and his outlaws as being influencial upon Tolkien's Túrin and co., but I never think of any one character as being like Robin in any of the afore mentioned 'outlaw groups'.
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Thanks,Stinker 8
Making fun of the topic? All the contrary, I think that I'm taking it all too seriouly, because I think that, maybe, Halfir has found more of what he originaly expected in the premisse of this topic.
And thanks for remembering us of yet another band of outlaws in Tolkien's fiction, the Wild Men of the Forest in Dor-Cuarthol.
Right below there is a couple of possible analogues too.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec....310d92?hl=pt-br&ie=UTF-8&q=robin+hood+aragorn
The huge forest comes from Norse legend, Minas Tirith comes from Prauge, and Aragorn's prototype is clearly Robin Hood. I will elaborate on this one. Aragorn was thought of as bad, shady and untrustworthy person by the people of Bree. However, he and his men were really looking out for their saftey. Just as the establishment considered Robin Hood to be an outlaw, he was helping the comon man. Aragorn's sword is his claim to the throne of Gondor, A kind of Avalon, just as much as King Arthur's sword was the indicator of his political power.
Robin Hood and Lady Marian in the forest, picture also made by one of the Hildebrant's brothers.
Aragorn and Arwen meeting in the forest
Some of the Merry Men, the Companions of Robin Hood's band
Aragorn, characterized a la Robin Hood and Arwen Undómiel
Edited by Boronwë - 12/Mar/2011 at 9:09pm
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think that, maybe, Halfir has found more of what he originaly expected in the premisse of this topic.
halfir remains the 'anyone but Tolkien as source ' unbeliever he has always been but clearly others have taken less- or more extreme positions as to the Sherwood Legends and LOTR. No doubt with further deconstruction of Tolken's tales we'll soon discover that Tolkien himself is in fact a figment of Jacques Derrida's imagination.He that would foil me must use such weapons as I do, for I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble.
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Others including Marjorie Burns and, presumably, Hammond and Scull together with Richard C.West.. Again, good names showing the beauty in the diversity of opinions in Tolkien's research and readership.
Then, maybe, in this case. Jacques Derrida's should be renamed Jacques Der-Elda, since that he'd be capable of creating living sencient images with his language, including retroactively in time. It would be an interesting idea to a tale writen in the style of Jorge Luis Borges.
Speaking about the connection between Robin Hood and Barrow downs, since that there is an entire megalithic site next to several barrows that was baptized with Robin Hood's name, I presume, that there is an original balad that has mentioned the barrow down before and Henry Gilbert simply repeated its mention in his retelling of the tales.Maybe the conection predates the book made by Henry Gilbert and this fact in itself would be worthy of further inspection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood's_Ball
History
Robin Hood’s Ball is a Neolithic feature that dates from the earliest developments around the plain. It was probably constructed at some time around 4000 BC and in use possibly up to 3000 BC. When first constructed none of the more famous monuments to the south such as the Stonehenge Cursus, Durrington Walls, or even Stonehenge itself had yet been constructed. However, there may have been a henge at Coneybury, 1 mile east of Stonehenge, and it is possible that there were earlier features at Stonehenge before the bank and ditch was dug, as indicated by the Mesolithic postholes found in the area now under the car park. Several Long barrows will have been constructed on the Plain around the same time, including one close to the Ball and several more within short distances such as White Barrow and Winterbourne Stoke Long Barrow. It is estimated that the site began to fall out of use around 3000 BC, about the same time as the earliest earthworks at Stonehenge (itself originally a causewayed enclosure) began.
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=27523
It seems that , indeed, there is an ancient link between Robin Hood and the concept of Barrows.
http://www.robinhoodlegend.com/robin-hood-place-names/
ROBIN HOOD’S BARROW Bournemouth. A tumulus in Talbot Woods to the north of Meyrick Park.
SOMERSET
ROBIN HOOD’S BUTTS Six miles S. of Taunton. Three long barrows near Otterford and close to the Chard and Wellington road.
ROBIN HOOD’S BUTTS Seven miles S. of Taunton. Another group of five long barrows on Brown Down, a mile S. of those listed above.
Specialy intriguing, given the circunstances surrounding the encounter with the Barrow wight in Lord of the Rings ( the beginning of an aparent possession of Merry cf Verlyn Flieger article in Tolkien Studies 04)and the treasure stored in the wight's lair:
http://www.paranormaldatabase.com/reports/robinhood.php
Hood
Location: Llansannan (Wales) - Robin Hood's Grave (tumulus)
Type: Haunting Manifestation
Date / Time: Still present
Further Comments: Some have named this site as the final resting place of Robin Hood. It is reputedly haunted, and some still avoid passing the tumulus at night.
Hood's Pot
Targets
Location: Otterford (Somerset) - Robin Hood's Butts
Type: Legend
Date / Time: Unknown
Further Comments: Three tumuli here were said to have been used by Robin Hood for target practice. The area is also reputedly home to a phantom possession of soldiers, and when treasure hunters tried to raid the tumuli, the dirt is said to have replaced itself as quick as it was removed.
Location: Oxton (Nottinghamshire) - Oxton (or Oldox) Camp, Robin Hood's Hill
Type: Legend
Date / Time: Still present
Further Comments: A barrow on this hill is named Robin Hood's Pot, and legend has it Hood concealed his stolen loot here. Roman coinage has been found in the barrow.
The analysis of the main haunting-story connected to Robin Hood's legend can be found right below
http://lowercalderlegends.wordpress.com/2010/03/20/robin-hoods-grave-kirklees-park-part-one/
http://lowercalderlegends.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/robin-hoods-grave-kirklees-park-part-two/
Such stories are very similar to those attached to numerous prehistoric standing stones and other megalithic sites across Western Europe, leading some to speculate that the original stone of Robin Hood’s Grave may have been a much earlier monolith which was adapted to a new tradition
This process is not uncommon in the Calderdale region, where a number of ancient geomantic sites have become associated with the outlaw, who is sometimes regarded by folklorists as a medieval folk-memory of a pre-Christian deity. One such example is Robin Hood’s Penny Stone, a rocking stone at the centre of a lost stone circle near Wainstalls, that local folklore holds was thrown there by Robin from across the valley. He is often portrayed as a giant of enormous strength in legends of the region, which supports the notion that older pagan legends have been transposed into his name.
http://hesternic.tripod.com/robinhood.htm
And, again , many thanks for atracting attention to this issue . It was very interesting.
The resemblance between the picture of the Hildebrant's brothers presenting Faramir and the original painting in the book of Henry Gilbert was truly inspiring. IMO, it showed the fact that Tolkienian painters are also fond of some level of deconstructing.
Edited by Boronwë - 12/Mar/2011 at 8:29am
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With the due excuses to the creator of the topic, a little digression about a colateral subject connected with this thread:
The illustrator of that edition of Henry Gilbert's Robin Hood , linked in my first post, Frank Godwin, also, coincidentaly, illustrated one of the books cherished by Tolkien, the Blue Book of Andrew Lang's collection of Fairy Tales
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Godwin
Here is Tolkien mentioning this same book in his essay On Fairy Stories:
The number of collections of fairy-stories is now very great. In English none probably rival either the popularity, or the inclusiveness, or the general merits of the twelve books of twelve colours which we owe to Andrew Lang and to his wife. The first of these appeared more than seventy years ago (1889), and is still in print. Most of its contents pass the test, more or less clearly. I will not analyse them, though an analysis might be interesting, but I note in passing that of the stories in this Blue Fairy Book none are primarily about “fairies,” few refer to them. Most of the tales are taken from French sources: a just choice in some ways at that time, as perhaps it would be still (though not to my taste, now or in childhood).
Then, enjoy an appetizer with some of the pictures in the blog linked right below
Blue Fairy Book
And here is the book itself available to download.
Blue Fairy Book
Or alternatively:
The entire work
Version with the complete set of pictures can be found right below ( 9 mgs)
Edited by Boronwë - 08/Mar/2011 at 9:32am
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It is perhaps worthwhile remembering Tolkien's own views on 'source identification' contained in his letter to a Mr. Wright -Letter # 337.
I fear you may be right that the search for the sources of The Lord of the Rings is going to occupy academics for a generation or so. I wish this need not be so. To my mind it is the particular use in a particular situation of any motive, whether invented, deliberately borrowed, or unconsciously remembered that is the most interesting thing to consider.
He that would foil me must use such weapons as I do, for I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble.
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Thank you Boronwë. Now I understand.
It is interesting Boronwë that you have brought up Aragorn in all of this Robin Hood talk, particularly in relation to him being a leader of an 'outlaw band' kind of figure, like Robin Hood, "stealing from the rich to give to the poor" (but in this case fighting the evil and powerful to protect the weak, as stated above).
It may be interesting to consider also in relation to Aragorn and Robin Hood the connection of the Stone of Erech to the many barrows, standing stones, megolithic sites, geomantic sites, etc. associated with Robin Hood. As you, Boronwë, have quoted above:
... a number of ancient geomantic sites have become associated with the outlaw, who is sometimes regarded by folklorists as a medieval folk-memory of a pre-Christian deity.
This is very interesting when you consider also this passage from the Lord of the Rings:
"Long had the terror of the Dead lain upon that hill [the Hill of Erech] and upon the empty fields about it. For upon the top stood a black stone, round as a great globe, the height of a man, though its half was buried in the ground. Unearthly it looked, as though it had fallen from the sky, as some believed; but those who remembered still the lore of Westernesse told that it been brought out of the ruin of Númenor and set there by Isildur at his landing. None of the people of the valley dared to approach it, nor would they dwell near; for they said that it was trysting-place of the Shadow-men and there they would gather in times of fear, thronging round the Stone and whispering." (LotR, RotK, V, 'The Passing of the Grey Company')
The Oathbreakers who gather at the Stone of Erech are essentially outlaws who have become associated with the Stone of Erech by the people who live in that part of Gondor. Aragorn and the Dúnedain of the North (possibly seen also, by those people living in that part of Gondor, at the time as being outlaws) gathering at the Stone, along with Aragorn summoning the Dead to there, then also associates them with the Stone.
Another place in Middle-earth of importance to this topic of the outlaw and their connection to 'ancient geomantic sites' is Amon Rûdh during Túrin's residing there with his band of outlaws, although Amon Rûdh was a place of secrecy for Túrin and co. and not many knew about its use as an abode for outlaws.
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It may be interesting to consider also in relation to Aragorn and Robin Hood the connection of the Stone of Erech to the many barrows, standing stones, megolithic sites, geomantic sites, etc. associated with Robin Hood. As you, Boronwë, have quoted above:
... a number of ancient geomantic sites have become associated with the outlaw, who is sometimes regarded by folklorists as a medieval folk-memory of a pre-Christian deity.
Indeed Stinker 8, the resemblance between the Stone of Erech and such megalithic monoliths as well as their connection with Pre-Christian deities that are, themselves, linked to both King Arthur and Robin Hood and, thus, to Aragorn, was commented elsewhere in multiple ocasions.
1. Aragorn and the Arthurian Myth.
The Secret History of King Arthur
In Mallorn 22, published in 1985, Michael Burgess has already studied the several derivations of the Wild Hunt concept and its divine leader, the Horned God, in Tolkien's Legendarium, considering the Passing of the Grey Company an example of such numerous analogues found in the books of JRRT.
Gradually, various national culture heroes (or anti-heroes), and local figures either heroic, wicked or merely notable were drawn into the Hunt mythology: they"were put into the Pot, in fact got into the Soup", as Tolkien said (Tree and Leaf)
There is King Arthur, who rides with his knights and hounds at South Cadbury,and along the Brittany coast; King Herod,who hunts the Jewish infants in both England and France; and in France andGermany, the Wild Huntsman has sometimes be equated with the 'Wandering Jew,condemned to roam forever for denying Jesus a drink from his well.(...)There are definite resemblances between the Herlethingi and the Dead Men of Dunharrow, the silent 'Shadow Host' doomed to haunt Lamedon until allowed by Aragorn to fulfil their broken oath. The Host is, indeed, a local variant of the basic Wild Hunt theme that survived into the Third Age, and bears many characteristics of the 'Ride of the Dead':
'The Dead are following1, said Legolas.'I see the shapes of Men and of horses, and pale banners like shreds of cloud, and spears like winter-thickets on a misty night. The Dead are following'". (Tolkien, RotK, p. 53.)
When Aragorn and his party hurtle out into the darkness of Morthond Vale, the people think that the King of the Dead has come upon them — and I find it interesting that Professor Tolkien translated one of the lines following as "the Grey Company in their haste rose like hunters ..."(RotK, p. 54).
Many different threads of lore make up the Wild Hunt mythos, all ultimately being spun from the original/ distorted/ Elvish vision of Orome the Vala and his host in Middle-earth. Even the solitary phantom horsemen/ often headless/ that used to haunt our country lanes may be derived from the foundational Hunt motif. ( "Oromë and the Wild Hunt: The Development of a Myth." Mallorn 22, pages 8, 9-'10)
Robin Hood is, frequently, associated with the same entity and the Barrows, that are called sidhe in Ireland, used as a late appellation to the Celtic fairy-folk, are universaly, considered passageways between the two worlds, spiritual and humane, or "visible and invisible" as put by Tolkien.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aos_Sí
http://www.yourirish.com/folklore/faeries/
In Ireland the Sidhe are considered to be ancient Celtic gods. Pagan spirits of Ireland were known as the Tuatha de Danann.
Tuatha de Danann means ‘Children of Danu or Dana’ a legendary race of people who overthrew the Irish in ancient times. When the Tuatha de Danann was overthrown themselves by the Milesians they took shelter in earth barrows (sidhe). Deprived of offerings and affection the Tuatha de Danann shrivelled and withered until they became the little people.
Indeed, the name "Erech" itself can be a deliberate borrowing or an unconscious remembrance from Irish language (similar to the Gaelic "nasc") meaning "burdened" or "laden"as I already stated before in this forum.
Such an esoterical aspect of Robin Hood's folklore was tapped fictionaly in one acclaimed TV series produced during the Eighties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_of_Sherwood
Modern Faces of the Horned God
Robin of Sherwood
In 1983 HTV (a British television company) decided that it was time to do Robin Hood yet again. The result, Robin of Sherwood was unlike anything that had gone before.
Written by Richard Carpenter, Robin the Hooded Man became not only a champion of the poor and the oppressed but also a champion of Herne, an enigmatic horned shaman who lived in a secret cave in the greenwood. Many of the stories had a very strong supernatural element, and Herne was clearly intended to be a mortal man who gained supernatural powers and who, in an act of transubstantiation, became the horned god when he donned his stag headpiece.
Thanks for your kind contribution
Edited by Boronwë - 08/Mar/2011 at 7:10pm
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nice forum
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I've found another interesting tidbit of information: the connection between Robin Hood with Robin Goodfellow and other beings similar to fertility deities was pointed out for the first time by Jacob Grimm in his book Teutonic Mythology, and this comment appeared, precisely, in the chapter that treated of "Wights and Elves".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Mythologie
Teutonic Mythology: Volume 2 - Página 504
Read the ebook Teutonic mythology (Volume 2) by Jacob Grimm
Not otherwise do I understand the Robin and Nisse?i in the wonted names for the English and Danish goblins Robin goodfellow and Nissen god dreng. Robin is a French-English form of the name Robert, OHG. Hruodperaht, MHG. Ruotperht, our Ruprecht, Rupert, Ruppert ; and Robin fellow is the same home-sprite whom we in Germany call Tcnecht Ruprecht, and exhibit to children at Christmas, but who in the comedies of the 16-1 7th centuries becomes a mere Riipel or Riippel, i.e. a merry fool in general. 1
In England, Robin Goodfellow seems to get mixed up with Robin Hood the archer, as Hood himself reminds us of Hodeken (p. 463) ; and I think this derivation from a being of the goblin kind, and universally known to the people, is preferable to the attempted historical ones from Rubertus a Saxon mass-priest, or the English Robertus knight, one of the slayers of Thomas Becket. Nisse,Nissen, current in Denmark and Norway, must be explained from Niels, Nielsen,
(...)
ANOTHEB Kobold or House-spirit took up his abode in the palace of the bishop of Hildesheim. He was named Hodeken or Hiitchen, that is Hatekin or Little Hat, from his always wearing a little felt hat very much down upon his face. He was of a kind and obliging disposition, often told the bishop and others of what was to happen, and he took good care that the watchmen should not go to sleep on their post.
It was, however, dangerous to affront him. One of the scullions in the bishop's kitchen used to fling dirt on him
arid splash him with foul water. Hodeken complained to the head cook, who only laughed at him, and said, " Are you a spirit and afraid of a little boy ?" " Since you won't punish the boy," replied Hodeken, " I will, in a few days, let you
see how much afraid of him I am," and he went off in high dudgeon. But very soon after he got the boy asleep at the
fire-side, and he strangled him, cut him up, and put him into the pot on the fire. When the cook abused him for what he had done, he squeezed toads all over the meat that was at the fire, and he soon after tumbled the cook from the bridge into the deep moat. At last people grew so much afraid of his setting fire to the town and palace, that the bishop had him exorcised and banished.
Then, it seems to me that this is another possible source, available to Tolkien, in which the connection between the concept of Wight ( as the being that inhabited the barrow) and Robin Hood was highlighted and exerted some influence in his thoughts.
The connection was subsequently elaborated upon by Margareth Murray in her seminal book:
The God of the Witches - Página 32
The most interesting of all the names for the god is Robin, which when given to Puck is Robin Goodfellow. It is so common a term for the "Devil" as to be almost a generic name for him "Some Robin the Divell, or I wot not what spirit of the Ayre".[45] Dame Alice Kyteler called her god, Robin Artisson, and the Somerset witches[46] cried out "Robin" when summoning their Grandmaster to a meeting, or even when about to make a private incantation; in the latter case they also added the words, "O Satan, give me my purpose", and then proceeded to divine by the animal which appeared.
A fact, noted by many writers and still unexplained, is the connection between Robin Goodfellow and Robin Hood. Grimm remarks on it but gives no reason for his opinion, though the evidence shows that the connection is there. The cult of Robin Hood was widespread both geographically and in time, which suggests that he was more than a local hero in the places where his legend occurs, In Scotland as well as England Robin Hood was well known,and he belonged essentially to the people, not to the nobles. He was always accompanied by a band of twelve companions, very suggestive of a Grandmaster and his coven. One of those companions was Little John, a name which may becompared with the Basque Janicot. Robin Hood and his band were a constituentpart of the May-day ceremonies, they had special dances and always wore the fairies' colour, green.
A synthesis about the issue:
Robin Hood and the Witches
Edited by Boronwë - 09/Mar/2011 at 11:24am
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Afternoon fellow lore-masters and learned! I did not even realize that Tolkien had incorprated parts of other great tales such as Robin Hood being descriptions of the lands similar to Eriador into the LOTR's. Boronwë fantastic work your post from March 4. I'm going to have reread the trilogy to see if Tolkien had other sipnets on RL works!
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The 'uses' Tolkien made of various old tales are certainly there, and can be a bit complicated. There's rather a lot of speculation about what Tolkien may or may not have used, and how- for those who would like a well-grounded look at this topic, Tom Shippey's book The Road to Middle-earthis certainly the classic. Rather a lot more than that has been written, but Shippey is probably the best starting point.
But these things need to be taken with a grain of salt, of course. The person quoted in the 4 March post is a good example- saying 'Aragorn's prototype is clearly Robin Hood'. This rather overstates things, to say the least- if there is any real connection at all from Robin Hood to Aragorn in Tolkien's creative process, it's definitely tempered by a whole lot of other things, not the least of which is original creativity and invention. If you take these revelatory source analyses too far, Aragorn turns into a carbon copy of Robin Hood (or Arthur, or maybe he's really Christ).
Anyway, as regards this thread, I thought Boronwe made some interesting points about the inspirations of various illustrators. But before people get too excited about Tolkien's great debt to Robin Hood, it's good to realize these are (however fun) speculations, not necessarily 'facts' about Tolkien's inspirations. That said, speculate away- but I thought a word of caution was in order (one more plainly put than halfir's clever parody of over-eager 'Tolkien-connections' hunters in the first post).
Vituð ér enn - eða hvat?
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But these things need to be taken with a grain of salt, of course. The person quoted in the 4 March post is a good example- saying 'Aragorn's prototype is clearly Robin Hood'. This rather overstates things, to say the least- if there is any real connection at all from Robin Hood to Aragorn in Tolkien's creative process, it's definitely tempered by a whole lot of other things, not the least of which is original creativity and invention
A very good advice, Lord of the Rings.
If the experience has taught us anything, while researching Tolkien's sources, is, certainly, taking literaly, everything with a "grain of salt", including Tolkien's own, sometimes, too assertive and inacurate, truly misleading, statements about his own creative processes, as Dimitra Fimi has stated.
Tolkien's rejection of the Arthurian legend as an authentic part of England's heritage must be taken with a pinch of salt and the same is valid for his whole reaction to 'things Celtic"
If his own comments are fallible as a parameter to make assumptions, what we can say about the "guesses" of other persons, including myself, you, Tom Shippey, Verlyn Flieger, Halfir or whoever else that are always in needs of updates, "shifts in emphasis" or, simply, completion in order to be better understood and contextualized ?
And it was Tom Shippey himself that has given to Halfir the wise counsel quoted in this forum numerous times: Don't listen to the author, trust the text.
In the case of this particular comment highlighted in your reply, we can presume, by reading its entire context, that the writer, while stating that Aragorn's "prototype" was Robin Hood was, actualy, referring to Aragorn as "Strider", the "outlaw", disguised self, with which he was firsty presented to the reader and to the hobbits. He was not speaking about Aragorn as "King", royal heir or prophecied mysthical "Healer" that later appeared in the pages of the book.
Anyways, I truly hope that the distinction between stated guesses made upon "unsourced facts" and "speculations" calqued in research about true "sources" or books available and well known to Tolkien( as Jacob Grimm's Deutsche Mythologie was) is , at least, implicit in this topic and, hopefully, discernible to the attentive reader.
TolkienWiki: TolkiensSources
Thanks for your helpful assistance
Edited by Boronwë - 10/Mar/2011 at 6:23pm
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halfir - I am eagerly awaiting the next in your set of threads. Which fairytale will it be next? Little Mermaid?
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Rumplestiltskin who I will conclusively prove is the prototype for Grima Wormtongue!He that would foil me must use such weapons as I do, for I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble.
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Boronwë: Thank you too for your contribution.
I have always thought that Aragorn has a little bit of Sir Lancelot in him as well.
One question: Who do you think have Little John and Friar Tuck as their prototypes?
Also, yesterday I came across these two kind of related images:
http://www.lotrspoofs.net/spoofs/ttt/2r0b1nh00d.jpg
http://www.lotrspoofs.net/spoofs/ttt/2r0b1nh00d2.jpg
(I don't have anything more to contribute at the present.)
Edited by Stinker_8 - 11/Mar/2011 at 3:01am
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One question: Who do you think have Little John and Friar Tuck as their prototypes?
Well, this is tough
In my mind, Little John resembles somewhat the archetype of Boromir.Again the Hildebrant Brothers are helpful in bringing this type of connection to the fore
And Friar Tuck ( resembling "Took") brings to mind elements that can be found in Bilbo ( the love to food and drinking), Bombur and, sometimes, even a hint of Gandalf's patriarchal side together with other less idealized traits. In this one item I can see parallels in Samwise Gamgee, filling the role of providing the ocasional comic relief and parental defense of the hero, as both of them, sometimes , approaches the archetype of Sancho Pança
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Samwise_Gamgee
Compare to the relation between Don Quixote and his squire Sancho Panza, and the gradual "Quixotization" of Sancho.
Friar Tuck carrying Robin Hood across the river.
Samwise carrying frodo towards Mount Doom.
Undying Loyalty - Television Tropes & Idioms
Farm Boy - Television Tropes & Idioms
Battle Butler - Television Tropes & Idioms
Stout Strength - Television Tropes & Idioms
Maybe, Denethor would be a fitting analogue, closing this triade of conjectural matches, given the parallels with Faramir(Robin) and Boromir( Little John)?
Edited by Boronwë - 15/Mar/2011 at 8:22pm
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In his opening post, halfir writes -
My purpose in creating this 'spoof' is to show how easy it is for 'urban myths' to grow up around the name of Tolkien, particularly if some town or village seeks to cash in in his fame . (I have no idea if the good burghers of Mansfield wish to do so- I'm sure they don't).
I enjoyed the spoof. But actually, there are some agencies (eg some local tourist authorities) who do make up stuff about Tolkien in order to attract visitors to their area. A lot of this seems to come from someone looking at a hill or glade, and thinking to themselves 'This looks just like something out of Tolkien' or something along those lines. (Though often they seem to be thinking about pJ's movies, not what Tolkien wrote). Then, this hapless twit will turn to Google, to see whether there is even a remote possibility that Tolkien could have seen just that place, at one time or another during his long life. Then, it's all bells and whistles - 'Come to St. Moribund's -on Sea, the Influence for Tolkein's 'Lord of the Rings' will appear on the net, and another urban myth will be born.
Naturally this 'orrible phenomonon usually occurs in the UK; though I did see something of the kind last year, when the volcano was going off in Iceland, and making headlines all over the world. Some folk (Not the Icelandic Tourist Board, AFAIK) were confidently stating that Tolkien had got the idea of Mount Doom from his visit to Iceland. The only problem being that Tolkien never visited that country.
Then there was something on the net about Tolkien getting the idea about Mt Doom from seeing Stromboli. And indeed the Tolkiens did pass Stromboli once, while on a Mediterranean cruise one time. But that was in the sixties...
So; uninformed fools and rascals can say whatever they like on the net, and people (some people) will believe it. There may be some excuse when it comes to stories of Tolkien visiting places in the UK, or nearer Europe - but what possible excuse could there be for the assertion on a certain tourist site that Tolkien had once lived in Nepal!?
Edited by geordie - 13/Mar/2011 at 2:43amIt's all in the books...
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what possible excuse could there be for the assertion on a certain tourist site that Tolkien had once lived in Nepal!?
Perhaps they believe the Orcs were modeled on the Yeti!
He that would foil me must use such weapons as I do, for I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble.
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halfir I've been checking in the books forum every day waiting to see Grima/Rumplestiltskin or some other thread. I really do think these are very fun to read!
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Thanks Boronwë for your thoughts on my question. I like your suggestions.
[Sorry I took so long to reply.]
Geordie: Thank you for your input. Boronwë and I may have gotten a little off topic, talking about many connections between Robin Hood and Tolkien's work, but it is certainly valuable information to this forum (and very fun!). Don't worry, we're not myth-making.
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Don't worry, we're not myth-making
Just looking for a mything link?
Sorry ...."I am no longer young even in the reckoning of Men of the Ancient Houses."
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That'th a mythcontheption if ever I heard one.
Edited by geordie - 17/Mar/2011 at 2:07pmIt's all in the books...
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But ith it a near myth, or way off the mark?
Vituð ér enn - eða hvat?
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Oddly enough (and this happens to be true) - - Tolkien pronounced 'mythology' as 'my-thology' - that is, the first two letters pronounced as in the word 'my'.
Is this an alternative way of pronouncing the word? I've never heard anyone else using that pronunciation.
It's all in the books...
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The OED doesn't list Tolkien's pronunciation of 'mythology', but that might not mean much (they also insist that tsunamiis only pronounced with the 'ts' clearly articulated, and don't even mention the variant as 'su-' which is far more common, in the US at least). But I've never heard 'mythology' with a 'long i' in the US or Britain, nor seen that pronunciation in any dictionary.
I think Tolkien might have just been pronouncing it that way because the Greek word it comes from, mȳthología, has a long 'y' (upsilon), which would have become pronounced like 'eye' if all things were completely regular in how Greek and Latin words get adapted to English. Maybe Tolkien was trying to be more regular in how he Anglicized his Greek than most people?
Vituð ér enn - eða hvat?
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Tari: I am afraid I was being somewhat facetious in my earlier reply- but give me a little time and I'll seee what I can do!He that would foil me must use such weapons as I do, for I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble.
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The OED doesn't list Tolkien's pronunciation of 'mythology', but that might not mean much
As Tolkien once said with a growl... 'I _wrote_ the Oxford English Dictionary'...
But I've never heard 'mythology' with a 'long i' in the US or Britain, nor seen that pronunciation in any dictionary. I think Tolkien might have just been pronouncing it that way because the Greek word it comes from, mȳthología, has a long 'y' (upsilon), which would have become pronounced like 'eye' if all things were completely regular in how Greek and Latin words get adapted to English. Maybe Tolkien was trying to be more regular in how he Anglicized his Greek than most people?
That's interesting - Tolkien's first love (linguistically speaking) was Classics; and he remained an expert throughout his long life. Here's an expert opinion -
'...his knowledge of languages other than his native English was amazing, and filled his students with wonder mixed with awe... Old Celtic, Old Welsh, Old Norse. Old French among many others, to say nothing of the profound knowledge of Greek and Latin - he was proud to claim that he had been 'brought up on the classics' - were familiar to him, and not only the languages themselves, but their remote dialects!'
(Simonne d'Ardenne: 'The Man and the Scholar', from 'JRR Tolkien: Scholar and Story-teller', ed. Salu and Farrell, Cornell University, 1979)
It's interesting to hear recordings of Tolkien - Carpenter has this to say:
'He has a strange voice, deep, but without resonance, entirely English but with some quality in it that I cannot define, as of he comes from another age or civilization'
(Humphrey Carpenter; 'JRR Tolkien: A Biography', Allen & Unwin 1977, p.5)
I wonder whether that indefinable quality could have something to do with the amount of time and devotion which JRR had expended on his love of, and study of, languages?
Edited by geordie - 19/Mar/2011 at 4:11amIt's all in the books...
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Might this have been an assertion of or claim to ownership? My thology?"I am no longer young even in the reckoning of Men of the Ancient Houses."
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It certainly is a claim to awful punning for which you have been duly awarded the Order of the Golden Raspberry and a tribute! (remember Penelope Gilliat's verdict on the 'Carry On ' films that they were so bad they became good - kitsch?He that would foil me must use such weapons as I do, for I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble.
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Originally posted by Dorwiniondil
Don't worry, we're not myth-making
Just looking for a mything link?
Sorry ....
Well we can assume that this is a facetious case of:
Sadly Mythtaken - Television Tropes & Idioms
Edited by Boronwë - 20/Mar/2011 at 9:30pm
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halfir - I was aware of the nature of your earlier reply, but I can hope all the same!
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Did I say myth-making? I will now correct myself: I really meant mythologising. I musn't have been thinking entirely clearly when I posted that.
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I would require more evidence than his mere presence there, which is in itself a speculation - quite probable, but still not verified.。。。
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